I think it's useful to have coherent taxonomies of form, and in this instance, Mateo is the one making the argument for that. David gets to what I think is an important, but unrelated concern about the risk of structural taxonomies becoming perverted into an archetype of the "ideal" form, making all stories that don't follow all the tropes somehow lesser (or Loesser). In other words, yeah, Disney (and specifically Ashman-Menken) established a central (typically female) protagonist with an I Want song, ostensibly set against the villain's I Am song. This is basically the Cinderella story retold in various ways. However, even without considering the concept musical, revue, or other shows that lean more toward abstraction and allusion than narrative, not all musicals are elaborated Disney or Cinderella stories, nor should they be, just as not all movies are Shane Black action hero flicks or Save the Cat stories. We should be able to acknowledge Mateo's definition of the "I Want" song without insisting that a show must have one to be considered fully satisfactory or superimposing its existence on every story.
The moment you start contorting your analysis to fit your taxonomies is the moment you've copped out on unpacking what makes a particular production work or fail. We should have enough tools in the kit to find one that fits and facilitates our understanding without insisting that one size fit all.
But is "If I were a rich man" really about just being rich? While the words say that, I always looked at this as an I want song where he is actually more philosophical- it is not about being "rich" but if he were then he would not have any of the "problems" that he faces as the protagonist throughout the play. He would not be living where he lives, he would not have to worry about marrying off his daughters or what would make them most happy, as he would have wealth and not have to worry about their lifestyles, he would not have to break his back working, and his wife would be happy and not have to toil. So while I agree with Mateo's definition I would not preclude the song as being cast out by the definition. This could still be the I want song of Fiddler, but only if you do not take it so literally- it is about a man wanting better for himself and his family overall and really that is what he ends up accepting over the play, letting love and his daughter's happiness (whether he agrees or not) control. So I think even under Mateo's definition it would work. (I just read Tracey's comment below after I wrote this and I agree with her words as well.)
Re “Rich Man”: It’s not that Tevye wants to be rich, which is the obvious meaning, but that he wants a sense of permanence, peace of mind, and respect he believes that wealth confers upon those who have it. He sings of a stately home. (Poor people often have to keep moving. They own nothing). He sings about being able to give his wife, whom he dearly loves, a comfortable lifestyle (fed, well-clothed, a sense of importance). Most of all, he wants to be able to sit and think of things higher than “scramble for a living/feed his wife and children/say his daily prayers.” He wants not just to pray, but to actually delve into deeper thought about what it all means (a “richer” existence, living at a higher level.). Plus, he wants respect, to be seen as knowledgeable. He believes that wealth confers all these things.
I think it's useful to have coherent taxonomies of form, and in this instance, Mateo is the one making the argument for that. David gets to what I think is an important, but unrelated concern about the risk of structural taxonomies becoming perverted into an archetype of the "ideal" form, making all stories that don't follow all the tropes somehow lesser (or Loesser). In other words, yeah, Disney (and specifically Ashman-Menken) established a central (typically female) protagonist with an I Want song, ostensibly set against the villain's I Am song. This is basically the Cinderella story retold in various ways. However, even without considering the concept musical, revue, or other shows that lean more toward abstraction and allusion than narrative, not all musicals are elaborated Disney or Cinderella stories, nor should they be, just as not all movies are Shane Black action hero flicks or Save the Cat stories. We should be able to acknowledge Mateo's definition of the "I Want" song without insisting that a show must have one to be considered fully satisfactory or superimposing its existence on every story.
The moment you start contorting your analysis to fit your taxonomies is the moment you've copped out on unpacking what makes a particular production work or fail. We should have enough tools in the kit to find one that fits and facilitates our understanding without insisting that one size fit all.
But is "If I were a rich man" really about just being rich? While the words say that, I always looked at this as an I want song where he is actually more philosophical- it is not about being "rich" but if he were then he would not have any of the "problems" that he faces as the protagonist throughout the play. He would not be living where he lives, he would not have to worry about marrying off his daughters or what would make them most happy, as he would have wealth and not have to worry about their lifestyles, he would not have to break his back working, and his wife would be happy and not have to toil. So while I agree with Mateo's definition I would not preclude the song as being cast out by the definition. This could still be the I want song of Fiddler, but only if you do not take it so literally- it is about a man wanting better for himself and his family overall and really that is what he ends up accepting over the play, letting love and his daughter's happiness (whether he agrees or not) control. So I think even under Mateo's definition it would work. (I just read Tracey's comment below after I wrote this and I agree with her words as well.)
Re “Rich Man”: It’s not that Tevye wants to be rich, which is the obvious meaning, but that he wants a sense of permanence, peace of mind, and respect he believes that wealth confers upon those who have it. He sings of a stately home. (Poor people often have to keep moving. They own nothing). He sings about being able to give his wife, whom he dearly loves, a comfortable lifestyle (fed, well-clothed, a sense of importance). Most of all, he wants to be able to sit and think of things higher than “scramble for a living/feed his wife and children/say his daily prayers.” He wants not just to pray, but to actually delve into deeper thought about what it all means (a “richer” existence, living at a higher level.). Plus, he wants respect, to be seen as knowledgeable. He believes that wealth confers all these things.
As David points out, Mateo's approach is more academic and composer-centered; David aporoaches musicals as an audience member.